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I shouldn’t be doing this as I suspect I’ll just get myself into trouble again. Just like last time. But sometimes you just have to stand up and join the debate.
Exactly a month ago I wrote a piece entitled ‘Scary People‘. You don’t need to read it but it might help. It attracted around 37 comments and then, as always happens, it gets buried deeper into the stack and finally forgotten. And then up pops a new comment from someone calling themselves CarpetGuy (who is a first time commenter on this site) which I reproduce here:
When I first started reading this post, I was a bit offended, but as I read on, through the comments that followed, I could see that things here are as they are everywhere, a bit confused. Sarah Palin never got any orders from God, she simply prayed that what was happening was God’s will, as we all should. I am an American, but lived in Germany for more than a decade and my daughter is a citizen there. As for the reason of fearing Barack Obama, as an American it is simple, here in America, we DO NOT want to be a socialist society as in Europe. I know, as a European, you cannot understand this, but that is because you have never known the true Freedom of Capitalism in it’s purest form. No offense intended, it is just different here. Barack Obama represents everything that a true “Capitalist American” hates, as in Welfare and such. I know, it sounds crazy, but we believe that the people are in charge, not the government. We just want to be left alone, no taxes, no welfare, no social programs, simple right? The problem is that many Americans do not want to work, and want the government to send them a check, and that is what Barack Obama represents.
This is a clear, concise comment written, no doubt, from the heart and could probably have only been written by a true, patriotic American citizen. I have no real problem with patriotic Americans but I do have problems with historical inaccuracy and that overwhelming American belief that they all know how the rest of the world works. But let’s get Sarah Palin and God out of the way first:
Sarah Palin never got any orders from God, she simply prayed that what was happening was God’s will.
We are truly splitting the proverbial hair here. I did not say God ‘ordered’ her to do anything but if her statement that it was “God’s will” to build the new pipeline came through prayer then it seems to me she is making the statement that this is a project personally endorsed by her God. Actually, of course, as she resides and operates in a secular society where the separation of politics and religion is a constitutional directive one should question what God was doing advising her on a purely political decision in the first place. The woman just becomes scarier and scarier.
But on to the real issue here:
As for the reason of fearing Barack Obama, as an American it is simple, here in America, we DO NOT want to be a socialist society as in Europe. I know, as a European, you cannot understand this, but that is because you have never known the true Freedom of Capitalism in it’s purest form.
This truly is one of those marvellous statements that Americans of all persuasions come out with much of the time and, in my experience, have a rock-solid belief in. Let’s start with Capitalism, both in it’s ‘purest form’ and in it’s more modern form of a ‘mixed economy’. Capitalism, in it’s purest form, was not only a British doctrine but flourished here for a good 350 years much to the detriment of the vast majority of our citizens. On one side of the coin it created a huge Empire and kick-started the Industrial Revolution (both for good or bad). On the other side of the coin it also delivered America’s ‘Great Depression’ and notwithstanding the current markedly ’socialist’ activities of the current Republican administration, may well usher in another one. Unbridled Capitalism is like unleashing a rabid wolf into a dog pound.
Socialism, in it’s purest form, has never really been practised in European countries although we have all dallied with it and tried it on for size. What we have here is a watered down variant that is getting less and less support as time goes by. But it came about as a direct reaction to the long period of Capitalism that went unchecked for such a long time.
I may not personally agree with the policies of our more recent governments and I am the first to state that we are over-regulated and that government gets involved too much where it does not belong but I much prefer the compassion we show for the under-privileged and for those less able to compete for their daily meal.
The problem is that many Americans do not want to work, and want the government to send them a check, and that is what Barack Obama represents.
You heard it here first folks – Barack Obama wants to send all lazy Americans government checks. Which, of course, he doesn’t. Any more than any world government does. Any more than any working citizen of any nation does. Apart from those on the receiving end, nobody can actively want to see their hard earned tax money get spread around like this. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Socialism and probably has more to do with the Capitalist way of disenfranchising people. It is most certainly a symptom of a society with problems. But the notion that any politician actively supports such behaviour is quite obviously ludicrous. Britain’s most recent right wing government was unable to solve a problem it loathed in it’s 18 years of tenure as has the current right wing American administration. Perhaps this is because to a certain extent it is not quite so easy as it sounds.
In pure Capitalism, the small few get educated, can look after their health, can own property and ride roughshod over the majority who remain doomed by the circumstance of their birth. In pure Socialism the incentives, challenges and goals that people need are removed. Neither doctrine can work without seriously diminishing the growth and progress of a nation. The world saw this clearly in the downfall of the Soviet Union and the legacy that was left behind. CarpetGuy predictably sees this event as the direct result of US policy – whether of the late President Reagan by negotiation or – as he would have it – the sheer dominance of American armed forces firepower. Indeed it seems to have become part of the American collective myth that they alone were responsible for the breakup. It wasn’t, of course, the primary reason, although it may have helped a little. The Soviet era finally unravelled because the will of the people made it happen. It is what eventually happens to all extremes of political doctrines imposed by the few on their nation. The nations with stability and longevity steer a course somewhere between extremes and accept that to have the good bits, you need to deal with the bad as well.
Ok, let me clear this up just a bit. Sarah Palin and her beliefs, her faith, are part of what makes her who she is, just as someone who is not a “believer” also makes their decisions based on whatever it is that they do believe!
If you don’t think that the US policy had anything to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union, then you probably also don’t think that the USA had anything to do with winning WW2! Which from the end of that war, until the Soviet collapse was a time referred to as the Cold War, guess what, we won!
Capitalism and Democracy go hand in hand and yes, it is a “survival of the fittest” type of society. There have always been poor people and there always will be, but, it is that dream, fighting the good fight, and being the best that you can be that makes it all worth while. Success or failure is up to you, there are plenty of poor people that become wealthy, some don’t, but it is NOT the responsibility of those that do make it to support those that do not!
You mentioned our “Great Depression”, the reason that lasted as long as it did, was the socialist bail out crap, like is happening here again now! Hey, a business failing is ok, we learn from our mistakes, and the stock market going down is also a good thing, it means that stocks are “On Sale”.
There is one main thing that has been the cause of our current situation, and it is one of those socialist efforts to make everybody the same,there are just some people that make bad decisions, and if one has bad credit, then they should not be able to buy a house! Real estate values go up and down, just like the stock market, when it goes up, you make money, when it goes down, you invest more money so that when it goes back up you make even more! By bailing out the idiots,you short circuit the whole thing!
CarpetGuys last blog post..A.C.O.R.N. What is it and why should you care?
American capitalism: privatize the profits and socialize the losses. One of these days we’re going to have to make up our minds about which one takes it coming and going.
The main thing we in America need to do is make our government smaller and more efficient, dropping or changing those social programs that are so expensive and wasteful. My mother was sent by her doctor to an orthopedic supply for some “special” shoes,the only thing that was special about them was the price! Medicare got billed $600 for them! These shoes are the same as $10 shoes from Pay-Less! Yes, Medicare and the like are great things, but they are broken and need to be fixed, not made larger and more ineffective!
CarpetGuys last blog post..Spoiled Rotten: Can you fix Capitalism with Socailism?
CarpetGuy just explained my America to me? His “let me clear this up just a bit” was as clear as mud. What if I don’t choose to support unwarranted invasion with my tax dollar? Where does my will end and CarpetGuy’s will begin? What makes my preferences be handouts and his preferences be noble?
Nope, sorry, I don’t buy it.
Well spoken in the first place, YSF. And well answered.
I do wish conservative America would quit running scared. If we can afford the last 8 years, we can certainly afford to give Obama the next 4 to attempt his best effort.
CarpetGuy says: “Success or failure is up to you, there are plenty of poor people that become wealthy, some don’t, but it is NOT the responsibility of those that do make it to support those that do not!”
What a cruel, sad society it would be if everyone thought like that. Yes, of course there are scroungers and people who just want to rely on everyone else – - but d’you know what, CarpetGuy, there are millions of people, prepared to work very hard, who just have not been born with the abilities or background that might help them to succeed. And your response seems to be “Too bad”.
Daphnes last blog post..The Brushing of the Teeth
@Sandy Buchman: Good to have you here Sandy. You actually touch on an important point. Being President of the USA or Prime Minister of the UK goes way beyond party political doctrine and rhetoric. It is the ‘man’ that represents you at home and around the globe not his party. A good, responsible leader will often need to step aside from the party line to deal with the unexpected. History will not remember Bush as a ‘Republican’. He will be remembered for his responses to events such as The World Trade Towers, Katrina and the two unwinnable wars he has waged.
@CarpetGuy: And this is where I am 100% with you. Fixing the problems is the right way to go.
Wow, we sure have a healthy debate going now! No, I am not a cold heartless monster, it is just that I have seen where these liberal ideas take us, have you ever worked 18-20 hours a day 7 days a week just to have it all taken away in taxes? Have you ever tried to offer someone a full-time job that not only quit the part-time job in return but stole company checks that you were responsible for? Want to know the reason why she did it? Because her Welfare money was about 3 times what she would have been paid to work! Yeah, she ended up in jail, but that is not the point. There are way too many that are spoiled rotten from sucking on the government tit! Able bodied people, that won’t take a job because the “entitlements” are such that it is an insult to them to have to work for less! The above mentioned secretary would have gotten a salary of over $2000 a month, she was 21 and had 3 kids, by 3 different men, all of which were deadbeats and/or in jail! This type of social mercy is not doing anyone any good, yes, I believe in helping people, just ask anyone that knows me, but, welfare is not the answer! You put someone like Obama in office it will just make matters worse.
CarpetGuys last blog post..If Barack Obama Does not Scare you, maybe you are someone I should be scared of?
Predictable as I am I’m 100% with carpet guy!
Thuds last blog post..Bits and bobs
there are shits in life that work the ’social welfare’ system to their own ends, and as I watched my parents (who had a small shop) deal with these idiots, I agree with CarpetGuy and Thud…, but the (over)educated version of the same self serving shits have just flushed the world’s banking system down the pan.
In life there are workers and wasters, I get the feeling that CarpetGuy is probably a really good honest worker and is really pissed at scroungers, but there are also wankers educated at Oxford, Yale, Cambridge and Harvard, these idiots get to ruin great companies in the name of capitalism.
Andy made the point that neither extreme works, because it brings out all the worst of both – I gotta agree with him here.
Wow, that’s a first, somebody agrees with me! I do agree with Malc here as well, but you have to remember, Capitalism is the scapegoat and the culprits are those that manipulate it! I know people that had to work 3 jobs to go to college, Obama wants to make it an entitlement along with everything else! So, does that make those that worked really hard to get it bad? That is why it has been called the American Dream and not a right as Obama wants it to be. The whole point was my reply to a post entitled Scary People, to me, Barack Obama is scary! I believe that anything worth having is worth working for, if you work for it, you appreciate it! The world’s economy is taking a dump due to people spending money they don’t have, and the countries doing the same, we have all become spoiled kids and at some point the USA must change that! Taxing those that have worked hard to get it, in order to give it to those that want to have it given to them is just wrong! Oh, I have forgotten to mention, I love this site! The people here, even those that disagree, are not rude as some at other sites are, thanks people.
CarpetGuys last blog post..Spoiled Rotten: Can you fix Capitalism with Socialism?
CarpetGuy, The only real difference in our point of view is going to come down to focus, I can see in all your posts a focus on helping people who have worked for their money, which I agree with, but when you look at people like Paris Hilton ,whose great grand father, Conrad, built the chain before and after the Great Depression. Now I agree that Conrad should be rewarded for working hard and smart, but Paris – she is no different to the pointless Monarchies that blighted Europe for a thousand years, the Monarchies that ultimately gave rise to normal hardworking people like you and me that just wanted a fair days pay for a fair days work, which they called Socialism.
In the UK we have a system were you get a small amount of money as a grant if you go to higher education, and then a top up loan that you have to pay back to that Government through your taxes in later years – how does that grab you as a ‘middle way’, so poor kids can afford to do the degree’s that we need ?
Yeah, it is a nice polite site isn’t it !
Whoa there guys. If the question comes down to ’should people be given state handouts who are unwilling to work and take responsibility for their lives’ then you’ve got a big NO vote from me 100%. If the question is ’should this young bright, intelligent person from a poor background with destitute parents be given state aid to go to university’ then my answer is again yes. If the question is should everyone have access to basic health care then again my answer is yes. Nations need educated and healthy people.
This is the big, big problem with the political party system. You can’t pick ‘n mix your policies. I stand up for self-reliance and personal responsibility at all times. But I am also aware that the world is made up of people with all levels of IQ and abilities and I will always be happy to meet those people half-way. (That ‘half-way’ statement was important!)
@CarpetGuy said: “…but you have to remember, Capitalism is the scapegoat and the culprits are those that manipulate it”.
@Yellow Swordfish says “…but you have to remember, Liberalism is the scapegoat and the culprits are those that manipulate it”.
I agree with all of those points, up to a certain point that is. Anyone here that wants an education can get it, we already have those FREE education benefits for those that come from the poor families, we call them grants, we already have FREE healthcare for those people that have nothing, we call that Medicaid. These are not the people I am talking about. As far as Paris goes, you are correct, she is a perfect example of a spoiled kid, however, her family has a huge foundation that helps a lot of people, so believe me, they pay their share and more. The people I am talking about are those that are not at the bottom, because they have already received help, help that has been turned into a way of life, generation upon generation, and now they want more! It is not about helping with a hand up, it is about the hand out! The very thing that has perpetuated this generational abuse! I have been in sales all of my adult life, I have seen families with 5 and 6 kids, just so that they get a bigger check! Then, those 5 or 6 kids have 5 or 6 kids and so on! Some of these career welfare families make as much as someone who does it the hard way, by working! Yes, there are many of these welfare kids that break the chain and use this opportunity to become something other than a leach, in those cases the system we have has been proven to work. Herein lies the problem, those that worked harder and broke free from welfare are being disrespected by those that just want more! My whole point is not against helping, it is about that help being abused. It is about something called help, becoming an entitlement! As you said about the 2 parties, one, far left, and one far right, one liberal, one conservative, I believe as it seems you do, the answer is in the middle! Help should be provided to all that need it, but, it should be limited and earned! The problem here is that we never seem to be able to get to the middle! Barack Obama is the most liberal Senator we have, George W Bush, well, he was in the middle until 9/11 and that changed the world and him, he became a bigger spender than the lefties! That is my whole point, we need someone here that is in the middle, that will cut the spending, and FIX the entitlements programs, not EXPAND them, throwing gasoline on a fire only makes it bigger, just like throwing money at welfare only makes it bigger. Believe me, I too am in the middle, just to the right of center, but still in the middle. Are you seeing my point? I think we actually agree, it is just that one of us is looking at the forest, one is looking at the trees.
CarpetGuys last blog post..Election 08: One story, two possible endings, it is up to us to decide!
Andy, after reading both of your posts and most of the comments as well, I agree with you:
You shouldn’t be doing this.
Bob Bragues last blog post..The wedding is today!
Hello everybody, I don’t want to be a pest, but if you really want to know how America should be, there is a new book, by Ted Nugent, ever hear of him? He is a Rock n Roll guitar machine that is still touring at 60 years of age, follow the link to my review of his book, read that book, it will help everyone understand where America has gone wrong and where it needs to go. Have a good one!
CarpetGuys last blog post..Opinionated Book Review: Ted Nugent- Ted, White, and Blue
Coming late to this discussion, it seems to me that the points of view aired here reflect the value of dialogue.
Being a sociable person I will make an attempt to aid my fellow man where and when I may, but only if I believe that by so doing it will encourage the recipient to achieve some improvement in their circumstance. All societies need to have an underlying requirement to grow, if they are to survive. Within that need, some will excel and others will fair less well… naturally there will leaders and followers.
Leaders, by their nature, tend to take on the responsibilities of their followers. Consequently, when change comes around that unsettles the followers, they (the followers) look to their leaders as holding the responsibility. This is so, no matter what label is given to the society; political, religious, geographic, etc.
If you were raised in that section of society that embraces leadership, leadership seems to be natural. If you were raised as a follower, taking on responsibility may be alien to you.
However, leaders may only lead, provided that the followers give up the responsibility of leadership.
Kevin Phoenixs last blog post..Solar Thermal Plant
@Kevin Phoenix: But distressingly too often those that follow give a mandate to those that would lead only to discover that they made a bit of a mistake! Incompetence, corruption, hidden agendas, mental instability… all kinds of things can get in the way… and that’s before you get into lies, misdirection and ambition prior to taking on leadership.