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There have been two very good articles over at Apple Matters recently. Today I just read Will Longhorn Suck Enough to Cause Mass Mac Migration? and yesterday they had an excellent article on the myth of the user-friendly computer.
The Longhorn article proposes well-argued reasons why Apple will not necessarily benefit if Microsoft’s Longhorn OS is a disaster. However, the sentence I picked up on was this:
While increasing the market share for Apple is of debatable benefit for the current Mac users (after all if you’re using a Mac now it is obviously a good enough experience) it seems to be some sort of Holy Grail for many.
Why do so many Mac fetishists have this irrational desire to see Apple topple Microsoft to the number one spot? I can’t believe they just want to see Steve Jobs get richer and most ‘cultists’ leave a cult when it becomes the norm – after all when it is commonplace, it is no longer a cult.
And do they truly believe that if Apple replaced Microsoft tomorrow they wouldn’t be just as guilty of the sort of software crimes these people hurl at the Redmond giant today? Get real. Apple is just as protectionist, arrogant, corporate and just as willing to play dirty as the next monopolist – only smaller. Steve Jobs may have more charisma than Bill Gates but when it comes to dictating the terms for mass computing I don’t see any difference.
As a Macintosh user since 1986 I can only say: Right on! About time someone said it (again).
What? Do you honestly think Apple users are Apple users because they like being in the minority? Get real! Apple users are not the exclusive snobs with a superior bent that so many people like to say they are. They simply think they use a superior tool. Most Apple users would welcome a larger market share because it would 1. Make Apple even more economically viable so they will continue to make great products and 2. Assure current Apple users that more people are enjoying their computing experience. Simply put, that makes Apple users happy. Finally, I do not think Apple would become like Microsoft in the event that the tables were turned. Why? Because Microsoft sucks and Apple doesn’t.
Thanks Luc
I am still amazed by the mystique of the Mac cult. It’s a great machine and a great OS but all the same….
Well Jim – I’m an Apple user because I think the Mac and OSX are superior tools – as you put it. However: (1) Apple ARE economically viable already. (2) I recommend a Mac to everyone who asks but I respect their choice if they go Windows – or Linux for that matter. It is entirely up to them and all I do is point out the pro’s and con’s. As for your final assertion – well that really sums up my original point – you simply don’t understand the corporate monster machine.
As a Mac owner and PC user I think you have taken the commonly used road to overstatement. What Mac users want, and PC users should too, is that Microsoft’s monopoly would be effectively broken! We don’t want Apple to exhibit the same monopoly practices that could bring about a 5 yr. wait for significant OS upgrades. I would hearald any good competitor which could widen the choices available. Wouldn’t you like to have another alternative to the office suite or it’s software parts? What the Internet has spawned, that should be utilized more in software file structures, the development of standard formats. If proprietary formats were not possible, and required thorough public documentation, competition would likely increase.
Who is more of a cultist, the Mac user who just prefers a better OS, or the Windows user who puts up with ALL of its myriad problems and continuously makes excuses for it? Hardcore Windows users seem to suffer AsherMeadow Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy… It’s almost as sad as those who continue to support Shrub and his Iraq folly.
Robert – here here to all that. (Overstatement is a product of being glib in a few short sentences). I agree wholeheartedly with your view. Open, non-proprietory formats are a future must. And I believe they will materialise as indeed, they already are. An Apple, a Microsoft and another, competing healthily is fine by ne. But I was talking about a Cupertino dominated world over a Redmond dominated one which is a different ball game.
And I’ve switched my word processing needs from Word to Pages (as an example). I don’t believe that is any more open format…?
As an Mac user, I am happy to see any incremental upward momentum of the Mac user base because that will spur “new” happy / virus free computer users and can only help out Apple Computer farther make even better products/support. Imagine this: just to double the Mac market share is a victory then imagine doubling that! We do not need to be #1 just happy users
PS: I also recomend and point out the diferrences to new buyers but after that I say “good luck – pc.”
Melangell: read the Apple Matters article again. it tells you exactly why people go for a Windows PC. There is no cult here. Go work in a customer support role for a week and you quickly learn that 99% of computer users don’t know their FTP from their TCP. They don’t understand subtlety. As the article stated, they want to send email, browse the web and write letters. And maybe play with Photoshop – (which I actually find easier to use on the PC’s MDI). They are not following the herd. They go into PC World and look at all the shiny boxes. They see the PC’s are a damn sight cheaper than the Macs and the salesman just want a to make a sale. Before a customer can discriminate, they need the knowledge and the experience.
Character assassination is an effective marketing tool. It skirts questions of productivity, ease of use, security, total cost of ownership, and administrative overhead.
Hey! ***time out***! The guy you quoted said: “increasing the market share for Apple[...] seems to be some sort of Holy Grail for many.” He didn’t say “replacing the Microsoft monopoly with an Apple one”, he said “INCREASING THE MARKET SHARE”. These are by NO means the same statement.
Your premiss is flawed for many mac users I believe. In my years of following the computer industry I have seen many others who hold my view of Apple and it is this.
I don’t want to see apple overtake Microsoft ever. I just want to see them closer to 12% of the market than 2% of the market and the reasons are simple.
1) More applications. The more users there are the fewer companies will look at the mac and determine it is just not worthwhile to make applications for them.
2) Better applications. With only a couple % of the market, only Apple and a handful of companies really take advantage of the strengths of the Mac OS and hardware. Killer features like core image, core audio, etc do little for the consumer if nobody uses them. Even things like integration with Addressbook, iCal, iLife and central services like spell check don’t make it into applications.
3) Greater variety. Apple makes some killer systems but they don’t make a huge variety of them. Case in point, right now the gap between an iMac G5 and a PowerMac G5 is huge. If I want to be able to upgrade my video card and put more than one drive in my case I have to pay a HUGE Pro user tax. With a larger user base Apple could and would diversify their product line to fill more of the gaps.
I feel the Mac hardware and OS have consistently (but not constantly), over the years delivered a better end user experience and bottom line, a healthy Apple is in a better position to continue this trend.
P.S. Apple iWork does use a proprietary format (in so much that only apple currently uses it) but it is documented and based on solid industry standards (XML) to allow for third party developers to access and modify it. Also, things like apple’s use of AAC, Mpeg4, vCards, iCal etc. may have been some what out of necessity but it would be hard for them to walk away from those things in the future. So even a dominate Apple might not be as bad as a dominate Microsoft but I doubt we will ever know.
Hi Jose. I’m sorry. Did I partake in character assassination? I think you missed the point if you think so. As I keep repeating, I am an Apple user who is unlikely to ever return to Windows/PC. For all the reasons you state and more in fact.
Peter: You’re absolutely right and I perhaps lost sight of that a little. But can you deny that there is an army of MS haters out there who DO want Apple to dominate? I’m not one and you may not be one but they are out there. They do not indulge in constructive criticism of MS, they vent bile. Their Mac is something sacred. They want MS to collapse and Apple to take it’s place and have not thought through the consequences of that.
I strongly support an Apple with a larger market share, just not a dominant one.
When a better OS than Mac OS X is introduced I’ll move to it. Until then I’ll stay with Mac. Does wanting the best make me a member of a cult? I don’t think so.
If Apple replaces Microsoft, then Apple will become Microsoft in all but one way — the world’s computers will get better. MS = mediocrity. Gates always wanted to be the richest man in the world, a personal goal from a very young age. Jobs wants to change the world, which he has. Does that make Jobs a swell guy? No. But it does drive him to make a better widget.
Doug – a wonderful voice of moderation! I agree with everything you said (except that my premise was flawed of course
) I think my premise is correct for those Apple extremists that are out there. For most, you are quite correct.
Actually, as a more recent convert to OSX, I have been almost daily impressed by just how many first class applications there are for such a minority platform. The dedicated development community does a great job supplying the needs of the userbase plus I have found the software costs to be very reasonable. Just another reason I am sticking with the platform.
Dismissing loyal Mac users as “cultists” is your most egregious oversimplification, followed by a series of presumptions and generalizations based upon it. I have several Macs and could hardly be happier with them. They’re fast, stable, secure, and elegant. They’re simple enough for my family to use effectively and robust enough for me to use professionally (I’m a graphics professional). My problems with Microsoft are many: their OS is clumsy and insecure, their business practices are corrupt, they’re clueless about real innovation, they persistently undermine open standards, and so on. Apple has taken an entirely different business plan: build “insanely great” products. Most of the time, they succeed. They understand that the end-user experience defines their products, so they spend the extra time and expense to try and get it right. Me, I don’t want to spend my time playing sysadmin, and I don’t have to (and not from “security through obscurity”, either). I want a computer that lets me use it, not forces me to fix it (it also helps that I don’t waste my time playing games, trying to prove my computer is mas macho by comparing frame rates). In short, even though I’ve worked on countless kinds of systems over the years (Windows, Unix, Linux, VAX, etc.), at home I have Macs and I carry my PowerBook to work every day. Does that make me a cultist or simply an educated consumer? Regardless, I’m a satisfied one.
Hi Mark. You’re quite obviously an educated consumer as I am. I’m not a Mac cultist and neither are you. If you have never met any then you are lucky – like evangelical people everywhere, they are over the top, un-constructive and blind to the flaws in their arguments and passions. I’ve met a few in my time.
Well, probably 95 percent or more of us mac users have to stare at Win 2000, XP or worse at work. I am proficient also on that platform, as are many of us, but that DOES NOT make me like it. If Apple had huge marketshare, our computing experience at work would be as pleasant as what we have at home. Would Apple be a scummy, greedy, monoploy given 50 plus percent of the market? Probably, but at least those of us out in User Land would have better lives.
Apple toppling Microsoft would essentially spell a disaster in the job market. Think about it. . .in keeping with Steve Jobs’ refusal to license Mac OSX to anyone else, and keep the whole system proprietary, what would happen to all the third party computer manufacturers and the people employed by those companies if Apple were to achieve a 90% market share? The companies would wither away and lay everyone off. Don’t think they’ll do it? Just take a look at the iPod’s lockout strategy. Given the option between Jobs and Gates, I’d choose Gates any day, because Jobs is a super control freak.
[ I’m not a Mac cultist and neither are you. If you have never met any then you are lucky - like evangelical people everywhere, they are over the top, un-constructive and blind to the flaws in their arguments and passions. I’ve met a few in my time.]
Where ANY of the computer ‘cultists’ that you’ve ‘ever’ met – Windows cultists? Or all ‘computer’ cultists of ONLY the Mac variety?
Well, Mr. Swordfish (if that is your gender), despite your reasonable reply, I do take issue with your final assertions. I don’t believe that Apple is “just as protectionist, arrogant, corporate and just as willing to play dirty as the next monopolist”. I believe they’ve consistently demonstrated over the years that they’re dedicated to making a quality product, not angling for maximum return on investment. Of course, that has to be tempered with financial viability, but I think they’ve stayed true to their stated objectives–which is precisely why they’ve maintained such high customer loyalty. In fact, when Apple let Steve Jobs go, they strayed from this path and lost customers and market share as a result. There’s no doubt that Steve’s firm vision has kept them on track, though, so if and when he’s no longer at the helm, they might falter again. Anyway, I’m sure there are true, Kool-aid-drinking cultists out there (as there are in politics, music, and damn near every other field), but don’t paint the company with the brush these wackos wield. IMHO, Apple’s been largely a model corporate citizen and kept my respect because they haven’t resorted to Microsoft-style…well…anything. Maintaining a hold on the hardware platform and OS hasn’t been protectionist, it’s been a matter of business viability (as the brief clone foray demonstrated) and product quality. Macs have otherwise been quite willing to play nice with other hardware and software solutions, as we idealists would hope. It would be nice, however, if more consumers would realize that Macs were often superior choices for their needs, if only to reduce the Mac marginalization that occurs.
Tom: Agreed.
Moctod: The Mac seems to breed a particular kind to be honest but I have met some even worse Linux ones. In fact, thinking off the hoof here, I suspect Linux ones are worse!
As to being a Windows Cultist… would anyone dare?
Blah: About Blah’s comment. if anyone wants to flame him can they not do it here please
[The Mac seems to breed a particular kind to be honest]
Really? Could you be more enlightening?
[but I have met some even worse Linux ones. In fact, thinking off the hoof here, I suspect Linux ones are worse!]
But, of course, those LinuxFanboys are the worst. Even a SuperZealotMacCultist® knows that
[As to being a Windows Cultist… would anyone dare?]
What? No security in numbers?
Mark: Gosh! Mr Swordfish! My name is Andy as it quite clearly says at the bottom of the post. I have many issues with your comments, especially the one about not angling for maximum returns. Apple consistently places the biggest markup on their hardware than any other ‘consumer’ computer company and I actually believe it is a big reason for lower adoption. My sons ‘Acer’ notebook has a far superior HARDWARE specification than my powerbook and cost him abut a third of the price. What’s more it hasn’t had to go back for repair three times either. The ordinary guy on the street – as I said before – sees better ‘value for money’ with the Acer or the Dell than they do with an Apple so they wont be tempted to try it. They don’t read the computer press so they don’t know.
I agree that Jobs has quite an interesting vision – especially in terms of design. But before he was ousted, don’t forget he was responsible for the debacle of the Apple 3 and the Lisa. He laughed at the Mac team until he saw that they might be right and then hijacked it. Most of the designs and innovations are not his. He is notorious for hijacking other peoples ideas as his own. Just go back and look at his treatment of Woz in the early years. This is not a nice man. This is (as Blah said above) a control freak – no better or worse than Gates.
And just to throw in something extra, I read a ‘cultists’ comments somewhere today slamming MS for their approach to DRM. As if Apple are not guilty of exactly the same thing.
I love my Mac. I paid a lot of money to have one and I wouldn’t part with it. I like the innovation that sometimes comes out of Apple and I have huge respect for the developer community. I have extra huge respect for OSX – although remember that OSX is not Apple’s. The real heart is still BSD. Above all, I hope they continue to prosper. What I don’t want to see is for them to become all dominant as I believe that would be a disaster in the making.
If the Mac market share increases, then ***we may get to use Macs at work***.
It’s not a fetish, it’s not a Holy Grail quest. It’s that we’re sick of Windows at the workplace.
Moctod: I wasn’t going to comment but I couldn’t resist it! I worked with a Linux zealot for a few years until recently who, interestingly enough had been hired as a VB programmer! So – he loathed MS and all its products! If I recall correctly (and I may be wrong) – I seem to remember that he hated the mac even more! perhaps because the Mac was more successful – I really don’t understand!
Let’s be honest, you’d have to be a rather sad person to be a Windows Cultist!
Giddy Yap: That’s how it was with me. I earnt my living on Windows for many years but as soon as I retired I didn’t really want to look at it again. hence the not-regretted switch.
OK – two regrets! I’ll just get flamed again! One – I wish Apple would make them better. For the price the build quality is appalling. Two – the wifi on my powerbook is pathetic. As I have said in an earlier post on this site – my son’s Acer/Intel box outperforms the powerbooks wifi at least 8 fold. If my powerbook can’t actually see the antenna then no signal! And that is just bad, bad design.
Sorry, Andy–your name wasn’t obvious to me. I had to go back and look a couple of times, even after you’d said that it was there. Before that, I’d looked all over the page and didn’t see it anywhere.
As for Steve, he’s mellowed, but he’s still a driven perfectionist. I’ve met him on several occasions and can only say (even taking into account the Reality Distortion Field) that he’s The Real Deal (with apologies to Evander Holyfield). I wasn’t around him in the early days (and he may well have been a tyrant), but these days he certainly earns the credit he gets. He may not do Jonathan Ive’s job, but he’s the filter through which Apple’s innovations have to pass, and he’s a damn good one. He knows design, he knows technology, and he’s the primary reason Apple does such a good job of melding the two.
I don’t really want to head too far down the DRM or OSX discussion path. Let’s just say that I think Apple’s made good choices here (and not just because they’re Apple and can do no wrong). DRM was a necessary evil (even if _I_ don’t steal music) and Apple’s the reason I’m enjoying so much good music once again. BSD isn’t the same as OSX (I know, I used BSD-flavored Unix for over a decade), either. Apple’s added real value and created new markets with their work here.
My complaints with Apple exist, but they’re few and relatively minor. As for price, well, cheaper would be nice–but you and I agree the machines have been worth the money we spent on them. So, let’s end on that agreeable note.
I used to be a Mac nut (I prefer that to cultist). I made my first million using a Mac in my consulting business. Then, the industry I work in adopted a Windows only software package as ‘The Industry Standard’. This software will not work on VPC and I was forced to work in the Windows world. Windows ME reenforced all of my Mac nut beliefs. I was right all along. During the migration to XP on modern hardware I suffered through the virus, trojan, spyware plague and the subsequent fixes. That didn’t help my attitude any. Now, with XP SP2 I find that Windows is usable as long as I reboot the system every 8 to 10 hours, visit only trusted sites as a non root user, keep anti spyware and anti virus software updated twice weekly and do twice weekly full system scans for viruses and spyware. Now I use the one program I must use with few worries. I have mastered this one program and can troubleshoot it completely. Now I only spend 10% of my time on system maintenance. I see where most people could accept this level of performance. They aren’t really idiots for using Windows. I use a Mac for everything else and spend zero time on system maintenance. I do not feel stupid lugging around a Windows and a Mac laptop everywhere I go.
Windows OS is ugly in use and looks but like a beautiful woman it is very high maintenance. Mac OS X is beautiful in use and looks but like an ugly woman it is virtually maintenance free.
Mark: Absolutely. I have to say that the image I get of Jobs these days does not always tally with how we all knew him back in the 1970/80’s so hopefully he has matured well. And believe me – I have enormous respect for the way he has bought the company around and for the difficult choices he has made. OSX was a courageous gamble as is Intel.
I think we agree at heart.
Al: And I made what money I have working with Windows so in many ways it was good to me. And it was fun for a while too!
I knew this would become a Mac vs PC sort of a thing eventually and not just a question about why it is important for Apple to gain marketshare. I just didn’t think Andy would throw down insupportable claims. If you have a point, make it, don’t exaggerate it, or you will get flamed. Maybe that is what you wanted and there were just too many cool heads here so you had to turn up the fire.
You didn’t state what Powerbook you have but assuming you have a 15″ current laptop WiFi range approaches it’s normal limits of 150 feet or so in doors and there is no way that Acer is over a thousand! It is true that the Tibooks (which I have one) did show more like 60-80 feet but even at that the Acer is not in the 500+ range ether.
Also, better hardware at 1/3 the price is again just bait. Sticking with the Powerbook 15″ you can purchase it easily for $1800 shipped (1.5Ghz combo drive) or less than $2100 shipped (1.67 Superdrive) so that puts you on the hook to buy a similar Acer laptop for between $600 and $700 shipped.
A quick pricegrabber search found the Acer Aspire 5002WLMi for just under $1000 shipped (so maybe half price?) But some differences should be noted.
.6 lbs heavier
1024×768 Display vs 1280×850
1.6Ghz CPU vs 1.67
512MB ram (Both slots filled vs one open on the powerbook)
Shared Video memory VS Dedicated GPU on the powerbook
10/100 ethernet vs GB ethernet
3 Hour battery vs 4.5 Hour
No firewire vs 800MB firewire
No DVI output
No Bluetooth
No backlit keyboard (come on it is cool!)
Analog audio vs Digital Audio output
I think that is most of them.
Now I’m not going to assess a value to these features but it would be hard to say that the Acer is “better hardware” than the Powerbook. If you would like to give specifics to backup your claim I’ll do the research to keep you honest.
Note: Just because you can goad some users into flame wars does not prove anything about Cultists! All it will show is that people are sick and tired of reading lies that help to propagate Windows dominance and as I’ve stated above, this is not about worshiping a computer, it is about getting the most out of your computing experience.
I’d even go so far as to say your gross exaggerations about how much better the windows based Acer sound a bit like a cultish praise. Maybe you are still a closet Windows cultists?
Well, there are lots of reasons (both wise and silly) to want more marketshare but I think here are two good ones:
1) I want Apple to gain marketshare so it is more likely to be accepted in more workplaces, because I want to use a Mac at work instead of a PC and cannot today.
2) I also want more websites to be compatible with Safari, while many will only render properly in IE. I think more marketshare would help there.
Like you second point Aaron. I was kind of banking on Firefox for that but Safari will help. Now if Apple released Safari for Windows… NO I didn’t say that – it was a joke!
OK Doug. Where do I start? Let’s go with pricing. I looked up the Acer you mentioned (not the model my son has but it will do as a benchmark). here in the UK – direct from Acer – the price is £549.95. My 15 inch superdrive Powerbook direct from Apple is £1,579.00. It actually cost me nearer £1800 when I bought it June 2004. Not an exact third but pretty close.
I wont argue with you on spec – you win there – but I will say that the spec depends on what you want to use it for. I wanted a notebook that I can take on the road – keep up with email – browse – do a little photo editing – do a little writing. Write some code here and there and watch a DVD. That’s the sort of stuff my son does on his Acer as well. Not an argument against the spec just a case that not everyone buys just because of the spec.
Let’s talk wifi! My powerbook is on it’s third Airport Extreme card – all fitted at Apple repair. I have done (for them) extensive line of sight tests using more than one make of access point and various software measuring tools. I can’t lay my hands on the document at the moment (this was last year) but I recall the numbers:
My powerbook lost the signal COMPLETELY (line of sight – antenna in view at all times) at about 30 feet. I could just scramble a signal at 25 feet but not good enough to connect to the network.
My wife’s 14 inch white iBook that I gave her (incidentally when it had to go into repair and I bought the powerbook because I didn’t want to be without it for two weeks) can manage 50 feet before it too starts to beg for mercy. This means she can sit in the garden whilst I am banished to the conservatory!
My son’s Acer managed 90 feet with ease and would have gone further except we ran out of garden!
A search of the Powerbook threads on Apple’s support forums will turn up hundreds of posts regarding diabolical wifi performance of the powerbook. Put a wall or window in the way and I can just forget it.
But do I love my powerbook with its lousy wifi, it’s stiff, creaking hinges, the latch that only catches on every third or fourth attempt and it’s ONE BUTTON MOUSE! You bet I do.
I have a hard time comparing those prices as there is no Acer direct Online store here in the US. But it seems odd that the exact same system would have such price differences country to country. It should be noted that both prices I mentioned were the best I could find searching multiple sites for new products including tax and shipping (and for the record, I’m sure the Acer was more expensive a year and a half ago too!).
As for features and configurations see my reason #3 about market share. I’d have tried to find a closer match but I just don’t know the Acer line at all. I guess I could go the other way and compare it to a 14″ ibook to get things closer (there would be pro’s and cons to each). This knocks about$600 off the price here in the US. Ether way, your statement (at least to us in the US) was an exaggeration and I thought I would point it out. Thanks for acknowledging it.
Lastly, Personal experience is a poor way to prove a point but what’s good for one is good for both. I just did a simple test of my TiBook. The undisputed worst WiFi range of any Apple laptop as documented by numerous sites and my own experience. Connecting to an Airport express base station (also not known for exceptional range) I can comfortably sit and surf the web from my backyard (about 50% power) from about 75 feet (the edge of my yard), through 1 wall and a dual pained glass door (and yes, I got out the tape measure) .
So the difference here is probably one or more of the following:
1) You have a defective Powerbook and should return it to Apple (maybe you got a lemon?)
2) You have incredible interference in your area (should cause problems with the PC too though)
3) I have the only TiBook in the world that does not have WiFi problems.
4) I’m lying because I’m part of the Cult
5) You are embellishing again to try to make a point because you are part of a counter cult.
I know that 4 isn’t true and 2 and 3 just don’t make sense. I’ll let your readers make up their own mind.
Obviously we have had differing experiences with our Apple laptops which is why you are so quick to slight them and I’m so quick to give them the benefit of the doubt. Over all, in the past 5 years, Apple has been competitive with the windows world with laptops, extracting a small premium for a premium product.
I use both platforms regularly, and follow the news about both, and I have to agree that Steve and Bill are not that dissimilar in their business approach. Case in point: the iTMS/iPod monopoly; as much as I enjoy them, I think when it achieves market saturation, the format ought to be opened to other vendors.
A healthier distribution in the PC market would be desirable, to reflect the merits of Apple’s superior OS, but I’d rather not have them on top. They are a better, hungrier, firm when working on building marketshare, unlike Redmond, which seems almost to be trying to alienate and frustrate users.
Why people get all riled up about an OS is beyond me. Why I’m spending time posting this is unclear. Computers are tools. We need tools to work. Each of us has different work to do, and different preferences in which tools they choose. It’s like getting emotional over different brands of wrenches.
I admin XP PCs at work, and I use a Mac at home. I would like to work on Macs at work, too, because they would require less of my time.
The Mac, at this moment, is the better tool for me.
Maczealots would buy even a turd with Apple logo on it. Being in minority so long and having evangelist inspirations like Jehova’s Witnesses can cause serious disintegration in the mind.
Sean: People DO get emotional over different brands of wrenches
But you make good points – especially on the iPod and the business approach. And the VERY point of my original piece was that Apple would make an awful monopolist.
Sebhelyyesfarku: You made me laugh first thing in the morning. But you treading dangerous waters there….!
Doug: Of your 5 options none are the case – at least according to Apple. They have had my powerbook back 3 times and swear it is not defective. Plus it is not just personal experience. Seriously – go and trawl the Apple support forum. it is full of such complaints. But did I dump my Powerbook? No I didn’t. I re-routed cables in the house to give the access points (yes 2) more coverage. And yes – I know this condition is not true of all powerbooks. But it seemed quite common on the 2004 batches. And Apple are notorious at not admitting defects until the hum in the crowd becomes a roar.
As to prices – well it is a common complaint here in the UK that MANY US companies sell product with almost just the currency sign changed. Look up the exchange rate and do the math. Sadly, while not the worse, Apple is one of those that do not price at the current rate. Interestingly however, companies like Dell – and probably Acer – do.
I actually have a friend at the moment wanting to buy a notebook to take with him on a long trip to Australia. He wants to keep in touch with friends/family and upload photos from his camera etc. If I say to him ‘You’ll have a far greater and satisfying experience with an Apple but the iBook is going to cost you twice as much as the Dell’ – what is he going to do?
We may well be boring your readers now but I did take the time to compare prices US to UK (have to love the conversion widget). And it doesn’t look like we can blame currency conversions.
But excluding Excluding VAT. The iBook vs the Aspire
Aspire 5002LM 1.6Ghz 512/60 DVD RW 509
iBook 14 1.33Ghz 512/60 DVD RW (802.11g/Firewire/Dedicated Graphics) 892
I’m guessing firewire and 802.11 would push the price closer to 600 with only the dedicated graphics card still left un-accounted for. So just hardware costs we are talking about closer to 50% price differential not a 300% differential. Can you see why a mac user might get defensive?
As for checking out the Apple discussion forums about AirPort. Check out the Dell, Belkin, D-link and just about anyone else who makes an 802.11 cards support site. There are a lot of things that can go wrong with wireless networking. All I will say on this is that Apple states 150ft range and if you can prove that it doesn’t get that on a good 802.11 network you should get them to fix it. As good as my personal experience has been with Apple products I know lemons get through. If you have bad hinges, a bad latch, and defective wireless range etc., get Apple to fix these problems so you are not a somewhat happy mac user with a chip on your shoulder but a satisfied Apple customer.
Then, when your buddy asks you about that Dell vs the Apple and you say. Well you will pay about 600 for the Dell or just under 900 for the iBook. Oh and by the way the iBook has a better video card that doesn’t share main system memory and comes bundled with the best consumer digital media suit in the business. It has no need for Virus or Adware software and includes the best video conferencing software I’ve ever used. And if you can add that it makes solid reliable computers, I don’t know. What would your friend say? I know what you said. I know what I said. He might surprise you.
Keep it honest. Apple products do not have 1/8 the wireless range of Dell products (regardless of your personal experiences) and they do not cost 300% more that similarly equipped Windows systems.
It has been fun debating with you.
Oh come on Doug. I’m enjoying this too much to give that a pass. Now who’s cheating?
Now you’re comparing an iBook with the Acer! While I agree it is a closer match, it isn’t what I said starting out. Plus, my prices last night both included VAT and the Acer I found already had 802.11 built in although it might not have been ‘g’. Plus a PCII card slot!
Let’s split the difference and call it quits. 205%
Getting serious on the wifi. How many times do I send it back to Apple. It;s been in three times and they say it is fine after they yet again change the card. Dealing with Apple here is not like you guys have it. We have two Apple stores in the whole country, neither of them close, otherwise I’d go in there and have a rant! I have to deal with phone support only…
Lets go back to what you said.
>>My sons ‘Acer’ notebook has a far superior HARDWARE specification than my powerbook and cost him abut a third of the price. >a closer match>>Our simulated home or small company environment encompasses a doorway to another room and a wall every 35 feet. Hence, at 100 feet we are two rooms away from the “base station” and after 150 feet we are outside a exterior wall of sheetrock, wood studs, lath, plywood, siding and windows.
Hi again Doug. You’re determined to whip me I see!
The Acer in question is the C301XMi (Tablet). This included a DVD +/- RW (better than my mac); includes firewire. Includes wifi (g). Includes Bluetooth. Can take 2 gb RAM (don’t know what he had in it when bought) + 7 hours advertised battery life. Various other bits in the spec. UK price – £799 inc VAT. My Powerbok cost me £1799 inc VAT last year. About 2 nd half times as much.
As to your wifi experience with your pb then I can only repeat what I have already said. 20 feet and I am losing it. There used to be a guy down the road from me with a 17 inch and he too complained. And the forums are full of complaints. You are a very lucky man! And I ask again – if Apple have had it back what can I do? I use the thing every day and it gets lost for nearly two weeks every time they have it. And iot comes back with an exchanged AE card and no improvement. IF we had access to Apple stores I’d be in one like a shot but the nearest is a very long drive away! So – I re-route cables instead.
Ok, I don’t get it. I’m searching for the C301XMi on UK sites and most were $850 but I finally found that the best price from NexTaguk had one for 799 VAT. The same search for an iBook 14 with a DVD-RW drive was $899 The specs are:
1.3Ghz Celeron vs 1.33Ghz G4 (advantage iBook)
256MB Ram upgradable to 1.28Gb vs 256MB upgradable to 1.28 (same)
40GB hard drive vs 60GB hard drive (advantage iBook)
Dual Layer DVD RW (iBook is as good) vs Dual Layer DVD RW (same)
Shared Video Memory vs ATI Radeon 9200 32MB video card (advantage iBook)
1024×768 resolution vs 1024×768 (same)
802.11G but no Bluetooth vs 802.11g and Bluetooth (advantage iBook)
GB Ethernet vs only 10/100 on the ibook (advantage Acer) (all powerbooks have GB ethernet)
3.5 Hour battery life (only 7 hours if you install two batteries) vs 6 hours on one battery (advantage iBook)
Now the Acer has advantages over the iBook in other areas (the cool rotating screen thing) but not in all and if I’m to compare to an Acer with “far superior HARDWARE” I would say the iBook is over kill. And at today’s prices we are talking about only a bit over 10%. Now if you want to compare a new PC to a 1.5 year old powerbook in cost and specs to try to make a point, then I’d say you are cheating and you have a weak argument.
Don’t take my word for it, follow the links I did.
http://www.pcworld.co.uk/product.php?sku=159515
http://www.laptopsdirect.co.uk/asp/spec.asp?V_ID=2296
This is getting wildly silly. I don’t know where you got the iBook at that price but I don’t see it anywhere. Plus, they don’t come (from Apple) with Bluetooth as standard (and the Acer did) and there is no such thing as a dual layer DVD writer for the iBook (from Apple) – something I’d love to have actually and am thinking of putting in my Dell.
The 1.33Ghz G4 may be rated as faster but in reality it does rather plod along. I would not call this an advantage to Apple – I’d tie that one. And I have used them both.
I read the battery life as 7 hours for the acer not half that. Double with two batteries. Plus I see it has a built in card reader. Nothing special but maybe useful.
The screen resolution is the same as you say. Apple do a lovely job of screen rendering when compared to Windows. But you can get Windows and windows text to be smaller. Maybe not rendered as nicely but useful and that is something I miss. I still find my PBook frustrating in that respect. There is no reason for the text to be so big but when made smaller then often the rendering starts to fall to bits a bit. I have mine set quite small and many dialogues cut my text horizontally in half.
Anyway – now you are making comparisons against an iBook which is not what I said. Tell me what I gained from going from an iBook to a PBook that cost me so much more money? Bluetooth? Backlit keyboard? Bigger disk? DVD-R? Gruesome wifi? Creaky hinges? Bad latch? and a little increase in speed. And I still love the damn thing. And I still recommend it if anyone asks – as they do. (And now the same son has gone out and bought a Mac Mini).
Oh yes – nearly forgot. I bet the Acer has a two button mousepad…
Doug – sorry quick follow up: I just noticed you found the Mac at PC World. Two things to say to that. Firstly, it comes with Panther. So add more on for the upgrade to Tiger. Secondly no-one – and I really do mean no-one – who knows anything about this business will EVER buy a unit from PC World. I wouldn’t even buy DVD blanks there. And this IS a serious comment.
You want an Apple in the UK you go to Apple or Cancom or even John Lewis but you DON’T go to PC World!
First, to you and anyone still reading I was wrong. I was still talking about powerbook built in specs, not iBook specs. The iBooks don’t come standard with Bluetooth ($50 add US) Also the DVD burner on the iBook is still Single not dual as the iBook didn’t get bumped with the last update (it is due). Sorry
As for the quality of the distributers I found, I can’t vouch for ether of them. I just did a web search for the best prices through Nextag (a good site) and reported the results. If you can like to a more fair comparison, please do. But even if I concede that point, we are talking about hardware that is (very similar instead of far superior) at 20% price difference when comparing discount price to list price.
Maybe you can give more reasonable links for both system that include all the specs you mentioned at the price you stated.
If you would like to debate G4 vs Celeron, I can give specific sites to support that clock for clock the G4 is more than a match. I doubt it will convince you but the data is there.
As for the reason for more expensive Power books? Display is the largest additional expense, but Higher end Video card. Higher end DVD burner. Higher end and larger Hard Drives. More ram and higher max ram. Faster CPU’s. Lighter construction. Etc.
If you want to keep the resolution the same, we can compare to a powerbook 12″ at 1.5Ghz with a Dual Layer drive and blue tooth, larger drive, more memory etc and still keep the price difference closer to 50% (for mac superior hardware, remember you said both superior and 1/3 the price). put up the links to prove me wrong or admit that you exaggerated.
As to seeing text smaller on windows? I don’t get it. I can adjust core font size from standard 12 down to 10 or up to 16. I can change icons from 16 to 128pt. My applications allow me to scale to virtually any size, the dock can be adjusted. Maybe you can get specific about what you are able to see more of in windows that you can’t on OS X but that is not my experience. As a general rule, OS X feels more spacious at 1024×768 than Windows even when using “small fonts”. Give it a try. Switch a PC to 1024×768 and a mac to the same. Open Excel or Word, browse a page, open your mail, whatever, the mac will normally display the same or more.
BTW: Panther, would qualify for the OS Up To Date program and cost $19 US shipped to get to Tiger and you are not going to convince me that I would have to do that to exceed the quality of Windows XP.